Real health care reform needed, but not what Congress is proposing

My wife tried to get coverage a few years back before we were married.  She was 22, and healthy except for a non-life threatening pre-existing condition which she had surgery for a year prior while under her parent's coverage.

She was denied.  By 5 different companies.  She couldn't get coverage until we got married.

Is that the insurance industry taking advantage?  Yes.

Is denying a woman because she was a previous victim of domestic violence just the industry taking advantage?  Yes.

Some things have to change.  It may not be what is being proposed, but things can't continue as they are now.

I think it’s time you actually started to pay attention to what is really going on. The insurance industry is the only industry other than Baseball that is allowed monopoly immunity. Now you may think that being allowed to become a monopoly is being over regulated then what about all the other industries that are governed and not allowed to become a monopoly? If you think that denying benefits for cancer treatment because the lady had Acne as a teenager (pre existing condition), or denying benefits because some lady had been a victim of Domestic Abuse (pre existing condition), or denying a rape victim benefits because she took anti-HIV/AIDs medication (pre-existing condition) and “C” sections are also pre-existing conditions, needs to change, then I feel sorry for you. If you think that raising the premium costs 40% in the last four years and with no end in sight, is over regulated then I don’t know what to tell you. If these things are fine with you and you don’t think you are going to be affected, I feel sorry for you. Of the millions of bankruptcies filed every year in the United States, over 60% are due to health care expenses, and of that 60% over 75% are people that have health insurance and believe they are covered, if that’s fine with you then again I feel sorry for you , because you are in a state of denial. The odds of these things not affecting you are astronomical. If you think it’s alright for the whole health care (actually it’s more like sick care) industry to be completely controlled by four(4) major insurance companies, and that they are spending millions to defeat any reform won’t affect you, then You know what I have to say to you.

Have you read the House bill? It’s available on line for all to read.

Charlie Lockett

Government run health care is not only wrong, but unconstitutional. It will be one of the major reasons we will implode finacially as a nation. Government run health care is a power grab by the feds.

If it's unconstitutional why do we have Medicare?  Government run.  How is that any different?

If it’s unconstitutional exactly what article does it violate? Besides none of the reform is going to be Government run. The Government will have nothing to do with it except to pay the bill as they come in. The VA has government run health care, and as long as we give it the financing to take care of our Vets then it runs better than any other health care we have in the United States, including Medicare.

Right now we pay about 2 times as much as any other industrialized nation in the world, and that is not our premiums it’s what our tax dollars are paying. Even though we pay twice as much as all those other countries we have almost 50,000,000 people without health care, and they cover everyone. Now that’s smart! And there is not one of those people that are forces into bankruptcy because of health care. No one! We have people losing everything they worked for all of their lives just to pay for health care. Another smart thing!

Charlie Lockett

he said so!

For better or for worse, the government (Federal, State, Local) mandates, spends, and regulates us in many ways. 

It doesn't make it unconstitutional.

But...Charlie - those other countries do not insure, educate, or feed non-citizens.  We do.  That is a problem.

  Yes, I've heard those bogus "horror stories" and if you look into them (specifically the acne) you'll find out that you do not have all the facts (though they may be inconsequential as you will see below).  Also, do you know what regulation is?  You can make statements irrelevant to regulation but they don't apply to this topic.  How about the difference between health care and health insurance?  The health care industry does not have a large profit percentage (though they should be allowed to pursue the largest one possible!).  You say "If you think that denying benefits for.. pre-existing conditions.. needs to change, then I feel sorry for you"?!?  Is this not what you are proposing?

  If you sign a contract with a company which includes clauses on pre-existing conditions, then you have to deal with stipulations of that contract.  You are always free to pay your own medical costs or choose a different insurance carrier.  If an insurance company does not wish to cover you, that is their right.  You complain about monopolies, though the regulations that do not allow you to buy insurance from a different state encourage this.  How about the required coverages that do not apply for all?  The requirement of employers to pay for health insurance (with tax incentives citizens do not receive) also impedes the free market.  How about ludicrous lawsuits that the government allows.  Too many people are terribly upset that their lives are not perfect, so they look to blame (and profit from) someone else.  I'm sorry, but mankind has not mastered sorcery yet, and it is impossible to expect the world to be all roses for you.

  It is laughable to think that any insurance company would not consider pre-existing conditions.  If you live in an area where wildfires regularly ravage the land, of course fire insurance will cost you more than someone who does not.  If your occupation carries significant risk to your life, of course life insurance will cost you more than someone who does not.  If you average 3 speeding tickets and an auto accident each year, of course auto insurance will cost you more than someone who does not.

  Again, why don't you start your own "fair" insurance company?  You can deal with the poor (a result of being a loser, not the cause of their problems) who waste their money and resources, then complain when they can't pay their health care bills (so this one factor must be the cause of bankruptcy!).  Some people are not smart enough or hard enough workers to earn the money required to pay for health care.  That does not mean you force those who do work hard and are intelligent to pay for these moochers' bills.  Health care is an expensive business.  After you pay for all the research scientists, all the engineers and the factories that produce their equipment, all the actual equipment/supplies, all the doctors and surgeons, all the nurses and practitioners, all the emergency response teams, all the secretaries, security, and janitors, all the insurance against lawsuits, the utility bills that in one day surpass your yearly costs, the property maintenance and the countless other costs, then you can figure out how much to charge customers to receive whatever profit you want.  Are health care costs going to rise?  Probably!  We can now treat a plethora of problems that in the past people would simply have to accept without treatment.  You would never pay for a hand transplant or a computerized eye in the past because they weren't available.

  The health insurance companies would love to have congress require all to buy their product.  Of course the government can operate an unprofitable business with money seized by the actual producers in our country and the private sector cannot, so they are not excited about that.. but what freedom-loving American would be (the moochers who rely on looters to pay them for voting like it, not exactly freedom).

   I apologize for not making it through the almost 2000 page bill, though I sincerely doubt even one Congressman will do so before voting.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.

I beg to differ with you those other countries do educate their people. Most have free higher education, and the majority is based on promoting the working class as we used to be. The fact is that after WWII most of Europe copied the United States. Generally though they went with a parliamentary system rather than our system, but we were the example for the world and we had the best educational system there was. That all changed about thirty years ago just as our health care system changed and went to a fro profit system. Prior to that our health care system was a not for profit system. Hospitals were not for profit, they did not charge you $50 for an aspirin.

They copied us because we took care of our people and our monetary system was base on the bottom up theory. We expected our children to do better than we did, to have it better than we did, and that was how it was, not so any more. It pretty much is in Europe though, and that’s because they are doing what we did from 1932 until 1982. Our economy was based on the working class, not on the financial institutions as it is today. As in Europe today the majority of the wealth was concentrated in the working people, today the wealth is concentrated in 2% of the population. Do you realize that the University of California was a free institution until Ronald Reagan became Govenor?

Thomas Jefferson said one of the things he was most proud of concerning his two terms as president was that he cut the Military in half, and that meant we had no paupers, because paupers joined the Military to survive.

Charlie Lockett                        

"Besides none of the reform is going to be Government run. The Government will have nothing to do with it except to pay the bill as they come in."

   Ummm.. ok, I'll allow you to realize the contradiction here.  By the way.. where do you think the government gets its money from?

"Right now we pay about 2 times as much as any other industrialized nation in the world, and that is not our premiums it’s what our tax dollars are paying."

  So you want more wasteful government spending of seized assets?

"Even though we pay twice as much as all those other countries we have almost 50,000,000 people without health care, and they cover everyone"

  Well this is simply a falsehood.  Everyone in American gets health care if he chooses to, even at the expense of others.  Again you confuse insurance with care, and that 50 million stat is asinine.  Use a little critical-thinking with research to see this.

"We have people losing everything they worked for all of their lives just to pay for health care. "

  If you have to pay for your health care, so be it.  Why do you think it is acceptable to force someone else to pay for it?  Your personal life belongs to you, do not assume that another person's personal life also belongs to you!

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.

  "Free" education?  Do you realize how uninformed this sounds!  And why do you think the wealthiest 2% do not work?  Simply because they are not lever-pulling monkeys?  Why do you think it is a bad thing for people to succeed?  They are not taking anything away from you, and you are free to earn as much as you are able yourself.

  You say that paupers joined the military to survive, so by cutting out half the military this somehow got rid of paupers?  Well, I guess if they couldn't survive then there wouldn't be any.  Thomas Jefferson also said that all men should serve in the military, not just the destitute.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.

"She was denied.  By 5 different companies.  She couldn't get coverage until we got married.  Is that the insurance industry taking advantage?  Yes.  Is denying a woman because she was a previous victim of domestic violence just the industry taking advantage?  Yes."

  Why is this "taking advantage" of you?  They do not owe you anything.  If you are unhappy with the offerings of an insurance company, then don't deal with them.  You do not have the "right" to force a company to do business with you.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.

  You are right, we should not have Medicare, Social Security, or any similar program that steals from the producers to give to non-producers.  These programs have no place in government and should solely reside in the private sector and in charity.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.

Why is this "taking advantage" of you?  They do not owe you anything.  If you are unhappy with the offerings of an insurance company, then don't deal with them.  You do not have the "right" to force a company to do business with you.

You act like there are hundreds of insurance companies out there just looking for new business and I can just call any one of them and get affordable coverage.  The reality is there are maybe 4 or 5 major insurers that control the market.  They all have the same rules.  If you don't meet their standards, you don't get insurance, that's it.

Wouldn't you want someone like my wife to contribute to the system instead of showing up at a hospital and receiving care on your dime?  

That's the problem.  Refusing to insure, or making it unaffordable because of just about any random reason just pushes those people into the emergency rooms, where the rest of the taxpayers and those that are insured foot the bill.

You are right, we should not have Medicare, Social Security, or any similar program that steals from the producers to give to non-producers.  These programs have no place in government and should solely reside in the private sector and in charity.

The problem with this is we pay into these systems over our lifetimes so that they can help us later down the line.  They aren't a straight "take from the working (or rich) man and give to those on welfare".  They steal from you and provide services for you later in life.

Where to start, that’s the problem. You make a pretty good argument, and that in itself is refreshing, even though you are misguided. I suppose I could start with the basic premise of the founding of this nation. This nation was founded to eliminate the elite /aristocratic class, and build a nation of the People, the common man. I’m glad to see that you are quoting Mr. Jefferson, here was a man that believed that the ideal government was small and non- invasive, except when he talked about that he was talking about the governments the Native Americans had, which today we would call communism. They basically had a government where you were allowed to do whatever you wanted to do as long as you didn’t harm your neighbor. They had a small community and everyone worked for the betterment of that community, not themselves. He also realized that such a government would only work on a small scale, and when the numbers grew you had to adjust that government to encompass that growth. That’s why an Indian Nation consisted of many “Tribes” each with its own government. But they all worked basically the same, in that everyone worked for the betterment of the whole. Our first governing document was based on the tribal governments; it was called the Articles of Confederation, just wouldn’t work on the larger populations. But the basic premise of those Articles was incorporated into the Constitution, a government of the People, where we promoted to welfare of the People, not the elite or the aristocrat. That’s why we have so many socialistic parts of our nation, things such as Fire Departments, the Military, the Highways and bridges, Sidewalks and parks, including city, state and national, Police Departments, etc. etc. They are there for the People.

You are right though, nothing is free, somewhere along the line someone has to pay for it. Take Social Security, it isn’t free neither is Medicare, I have both and I paid into Social Security for over fifty years and I pay for Medicare every month. I’ll say this again; thirty years ago our health care system was NOT FOR PROFIT. We did not have HMOs, we did not have for profit hospitals, Doctors actually made house calls and helped anyone and everyone, regardless of their insurance of lack of insurance. They were still well compensated, for the most part, although most Drs. today, unless they specialize never get rich. Insurance companies, however, do get rich, and they get their wealth from the profits of their premiums after their outgo. Therefore it is to their best interests to deny paying out anything they can, it improves the profit margin. Exactly what is it that insurance companies do? The do exactly what Medicare does, they take peoples’ money by way of premiums and they pay for the services that a doctor or hospital or whatever provides. So it only makes sense that they would want to payout as little as they could get away with, don’t you think?

Some time ago I wrote a blog about a couple that went to France, he had been involved in the Normandy invasion and he wanted to see that country during peace time. While they were there he got sick, he was tired, had chest pains etc. The hotel called him a cab and he was taken to the Emergency Room at the local hospital. No one asked them for an insurance card they just took him in and started checking him out. They had a lung dr. a heart dr. a nerve dr. they took ex-rays MRIs all the thing they needed to do in order to find  out what was wrong. It turned out that it was pneumonia and not his heart. They would not take her credit card, even though regrettably they would have to bill her, because this couple were not citizens and part of the EU. Six months later she got a bill for a little over $200, this included all the Doctors, all the Nurses, all the tests, all the medication, it even included the receptionist. Quite a difference don’t you think? That’s because their health care system is not for profit. In France it is more like our Medicare.

Now let’s talk about government run and what we have as Medicare and the difference. The VA is government run, in that the hospitals are government owned the Doctors work for the Government as do all the other personnel. Medicare just acts as an instrument to pay the bills, as the insurance companies do except that Medicare is not for profit. The cost to run Medicare s about 2% therefore the cost of Medicare is kept low. They do not have to pay out the millions of dollars a year to their CEOs, and even more millions to the other officers , plus the bonuses they pay to the people who find ways to deny claims, which is being done. People get a bonus for every time they find a way to deny a claim.

I am more in favor of the single payer plan and in my opinion the best health care reform would be to lower the age limit on Medicare and make that available to everyone in the United States. This would eliminate all the bankruptcies due to medical bills. It isn’t just the people that don’t take care of themselves that are subject to the abuses of the insurances companies. I not only believe it is the right of every American, according to the Constitution, but I believe it is a moral obligation for every American to have health care. The Constitution states to promote the general Welfare, and the word Welfare is capitalized meaning it is a priority. If having every American having a comprehensive health care plan isn’t promoting the general Welfare, what is the general Welfare? I know there are a lot of people on the Hive that say they are Christians, and if they are then why is the words of Jesus being ignored, when he said what you do to the least of them you do unto me. So I think it’s our obligation to care for the people of this nation. I believe that our economy demands that we eliminate the obscene cost of medical insurance and therefore helping our products become more competitive on the overseas market.

Another thing about Jefferson, he was against a standing Army during peace time. He was also in favor of taxing the businesses and not the working man, or common man whichever you want to call the average American.

In my first response to this post I said that I had worked all over the United States, that’s what I do, and I have never found a place where my insurance was not accepted. There is nothing stopping these insurance companies from doing whatever they want, if they want to operate in Alaska and in California they will do just that there is no law stopping them. The fact that the whole industry is controlled by 4 or 5 companies should tell you that they can operate anywhere they want, because they do.

Charlie Lockett

What happened to the resident Constitutional scholar? He said that health care was un-Constitutional and yet he will not name what article it violates. Seems to me if you are going to make such a statement you should be able to tell us why you are able to say such a thing. Is this just another unfounded remark? I think so.

Charlie Lockett

"That's the problem.  Refusing to insure, or making it unaffordable because of just about any random reason just pushes those people into the emergency rooms, where the rest of the taxpayers and those that are insured foot the bill."
   Are you saying that if I don't voluntarily contribute to your personal bills, then you will use the armed government to take it by force?   This is a problem separate from the insurance one.  The taxpayers should not have to foot this bill either.

"You act like there are hundreds of insurance companies out there just looking for new business and I can just call any one of them and get affordable coverage.  The reality is there are maybe 4 or 5 major insurers that control the market.  They all have the same rules.  If you don't meet their standards, you don't get insurance, that's it."

  Again, what do you consider "affordable"?  Some things in this world are costly.  What do you consider "major"?  Why does an insurance company need to give you coverage?  They are not taking away from you if they do not sell you their product.  Of course they have standards.. not random conditions.

"The problem with this is we pay into these systems over our lifetimes so that they can help us later down the line.  They aren't a straight "take from the working (or rich) man and give to those on welfare".  They steal from you and provide services for you later in life."

  Check your paystubs to see how much you actually contribute to these programs.  Then ask someone who is successful how much he contributes.  If everyone is paying into this program involuntarily, don't you think they would be better off investing it how they see fit?  A private company has to remain profitable, which hinges on their ability to provide services that customers willingly pay for, while the government has not and will not.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural

  First of all, Jefferson distinguished between communism, a republic democracy, and what he called the ungoverned Indians.

thirty years ago our health care system was NOT FOR PROFIT

  This simply is not true.  There were, will be, and should be charity.. but that is completely different than profiting from others who pay for your services.  Plundering your neighbor's earnings through the armed government is not harming him?

Doctors actually made house calls and helped anyone and everyone, regardless of their insurance of lack of insurance. They were still well compensated

  Not for profit?  The doctors were compensated but made no profit?  What is wrong with obtaining a return for your work?  Why do you begrudge a man earnings?

Six months later she got a bill for a little over $200, this included all the Doctors, all the Nurses, all the tests, all the medication, it even included the receptionist. Quite a difference don’t you think? That’s because their health care system is not for profit. In France it is more like our Medicare

  $200 did not even come close to covering any of those expenses.  The producers of France paid for it, and the doctors, nurses, etc. DID earn a profit.  France has been floundering for a long time (and are now starting to get away from their socialistic rut) and our Medicare is a terrible program.

The cost to run Medicare s about 2% therefore the cost of Medicare is kept low

  I don't know what you mean here, but doctors in my circle are very unhappy with Medicare.  The cost of Medicare is not low, and is paid for by seized assets. 

 I am more in favor of the single payer plan

  Were you not complaining about monopolies yesterday?  How about a monopoly that has no financial accountability like your Medicare for all?  Why do you think general Welfare would be advanced by allowing a class of citizens to flourish by thievery?  On the Jesus thing:  Did Christ say it was right to usurp resources from one man and give them to another?  Definitely not!  Charity is what he encouraged, and charity cannot be forced.

Another thing about Jefferson, he was against a standing Army during peace time. He was also in favor of taxing the businesses and not the working man, or common man whichever you want to call the average American.

  Excellent point which I agree with!  Jefferson did think every man should own a gun and be able to defend his country and self at any time.  Income tax has been a hideously harmful aspect of our country for around a hundred years now.  I agree that taxes should be collected on all goods and services, though.  You do realize that businesses do not pay taxes.. they are ultimately paid for by customers, though less efficiently than with a consumption tax.

I have never found a place where my insurance was not accepted

  This is not the same as how a California citizen is forbidden to buy insurance from an insurance company in North Dakota which has different regulations for coverage.  You can use your CA insurance elsewhere, but not buy that elsewhere's policies.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural

I think this discussion comes down to everyone's opinion of "Is being able to access health care a right?".

I think slice is advocating that he would be against that statement.  

So my question would be: Do you believe that health care should be a right for a person in a civilized society?

"I think this discussion comes down to everyone's opinion of "Is being able to access health care a right?"."

  Wake up!  Everyone DOES have access to health care..  Oh, I get it.  You just want to someone else to pay for your bills!  You absolutely do not have the right to force others to do this!

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural

I meant WE (the US) feed, educate, etc. those who are not citizens. 

You and I rarely disagree, I just don't post much.  You have much wisdom!

So, the Constitution says we have some basic rights.  I'm pretty sure "life" includes the proper care of one's person, no? 

I would venture that any of our 'rights' contained in the Constitution come with costs.  Freedom isn't free, just ask Congress or the DOD.  Even the "pursuit of happiness" has associated costs.

We have free education, free police and fire protection.  We have lots of freebies which of course AREN'T really free.  We pay for them with taxes.

Should I be able to opt out of fire protection if my house is fireproof?

  It seems far too common that people "argue" against an idea by describing the opposition as a caricature.  I don't claim that you want to seize all assets and businesses to create slavery of Americans, so don't do the same with my ideas.  Government has obligations, but "proper care of one's person" is definitely not one.  Doctors were around when our country was founded, but no one dreamed of forcing one man to cover another's bills!  You say "we" pay for services?  Well, America is approaching the point where a minority will pay for all services for all, so don't use the term "we" or "the US" when referring to payment.

  Education also falls into the same category of personal responsibility.  The government schools (you may call them public) were designed to suppress real education and to create an underclass of factory workers.  Former President Woodrow Wilson helped create these mills and was unabashed about it!  Pres. WW quote:  "We want one class to have a liberal education.  We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks."

   This is somewhat off subject, I'll try to start a separate blog about education in the near future.

 "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson:1st Inaugural

Still misguided. If you go into a candy store and you partake of that candy is the money owed for that candy legally still yours, or does it belong to the candy store? I would say that the candy store is entitled to the cost of that candy, wouldn’t you? It’s the same as what we receive from this great nation of ours, someone has to pay for all of these things, don’t you think? If we want police protection and fire protection we must pay for it somehow. If we want an Army we also need to finance that some way too. If we did not and we privatized everything then only the ones who were able to pay for and prove they were able to pay for that service would be able to get them. As your house is burning the fire department is checking to see if you can afford to put the fire out, or they would quit as soon as the funds were gone. Or maybe a fence around you yard and you not being able to leave unless you had the money to pay the toll to walk on the sidewalk, or to drive onto the street. So what we do is pay taxes to pay for these things, so the money we should pay in taxes really does not belong to us, because we have taken a bite of that candy, so to speak.

I think where the boat is being missed is that no one is proposing a free ride for anyone. Health care reform is not proposing that either, what the object is is to make affordable health care available to everyone. It is not to furnish every one with free medical insurance. There is nothing offered for free and I don’t think the majority of people would want that. Every time I hear this talking point about people wanting someone else to pay for them all I can think of is that dope attic talk show host that does nothing but try to incite people for his ratings. The more outrages he is the more people listen to him. What amazes me is that so many actually believe what his dope fried brain can think up.

Social Security was designed in a way that had the people working now paying into it and that money going out to the people drawing it. It was never intended as a sole retirement plan but as a security account for those that needed it. During the Depression millions of people lost every dime of their retirement and they had nothing to live on, Social Security was designed so that if we ever found ourselves in that situation again we would not have those millions starving and homeless. It worked great until our President in the ‘80’s started taking from the trust account and not repaying it. Medicare is designed to give older, retired persons an affordable health insurance so they do not have to resort to choosing between medical care and food. Medicare is paid for by the people using it, every month the premium comes out of their Social Security check, plus most have a supplemental to cover what isn’t covered in the basic plan. G. W. Bush reformed Medicare in the hopes that it would go broke or become such that it could be privatized, which would have increased the cost immensely, he did this by making it so the price of prescription drugs could not be negotiated. This actually caused me to cancel my membership with AARP, because they indorsed it.

So nothing is free and no one is proposing that it become that way. Right now in this country we have enough welfare give away programs, such as the massive tax cuts for the ultra rich and the tax breaks to corporations that outsource American jobs. Corporate welfare has caused a national debt that we may never be able to pay off. What we have to worry about is whether or not China and Saudi Arabia ever decides to call in the loans. If they do then we will have to learn to speak one of those languages. Foreign countries already own our ports and many of our major buildings and bridges and everything else they want to take as collateral for the money we borrow to continue running our government. That same president in the ‘80’s and his policies of advancing the wealthy and degrading the common worker is the major cause of these woes. Deregulation, “free” trade, and tax cuts for those that do not need it have bankrupted this nation. He started this nation down the road that we went leading us into the Great Depression, same policies same outcome.

We need to rebuild this economy from the bottom up, and in order to do that we need to start manufacturing thing here in the United States once again. It’s fine to have Wall Street at 10,000 but if we are not producing a marketable product we are not creating national wealth. Wall Street never created a job. Tax cuts to the wealthy never created a job, if it did then why are we in such bad shape and unemployment so high? We need to get all that TARP money to the small businesses, we need to lessen the burden they have by paying such high insurance premiums. We need to reform our trade policies so we are not the only ones paying import tariffs. We need to change the tax structure back to what they were before Reagan. We had went for fifty (50) years without a recession, and within three years of his taking office we had a major recession, and we have had three major recessions since then. No one enjoys paying taxes, but they sure enjoy what those taxes pay for. Nothing is free!

Charlie Lockett

Well what do you know, you just wrote a post that I am in complete agreement with. We do not have a free educational system and I’ve written about that before, so I’ll wait for your blog, not many comment on the ones I write.

 To me the proper job of government is to take care of the problems that we as a person cannot handle. Things such as highways, bridges and the services that are considered the “commons”. We have a government to protect us from foreign invaders.

The Constitution does not say anything about Life. It does, however, state that is the responsibility to promote the general Welfare. Now that can cover a great deal of ground, and at this point in time, when insurance rates have gone up 40% in the last four years, when we have over 40 million either not insured or under insured then to Promote the general Welfare falls into the category of helping where the individual is unable to handle the problem. It has become a national problem, and that brings in the Federal Government. Now if they reform health care to make the option affordable to everyone that does not have insurance and takes the burden off the small businesses, if it is run as Medicare is run and not as a government program then Government is doing its job. Taking care of the problem the needs the power and size to do what has to be done.

Getting back to education, that too could fall under promote the general Welfare, because the better educated our people are the better off the nation is. Best investment we can make. Providing quality education will promote the welfare of every person in this nation.

I never said that anyone was working for nothing. I said hospitals were run as not for profit. That means that profit is not the motivating object of the business. The way the insurance companies are run, as for profit, it is their obligation to their stock holders to make a profit. The way they are not only is detrimental to the people paying the premiums but also to the doctors. They are also taking it in the shorts, because a reasonable profit is no longer good enough, greed has taken over. There are major differences between non-profit, not-for-profit and for profit. You can dispute this all you want, but I am old enough to remember what it was like before HMOs. I still remember that everyone could go to the doctor and be treated and not have to worry about losing everything they had worked for all their lives. I don’t think I knew anyone that ever had to do that, and now over 60% of the bankruptcies are due to medical costs. Something is for sure wrong. When you realize that we are the only industrialized nation without a national health care plan, and that our health care system is ranked 37th in the world. That’s not to say that there are not things we do better than anyone else, but the general welfare as far as health insurance goes sucks.

Charlie Lockett

  Once again, do not make up silly arguments for your opponents to make yours sound more feasible.  I am not "entering a candy store to purchase,"  others are and require me to pay for their treats.  I have not "taken a bite out of candy" that I have not paid for!  Also, see previous comment on fire/police/military.. health care is NOT in the realm of government duties.

  You think competitive private investments would cost more for taxpayers?  It would definitely cost more for those who do not pay taxes!  But the government does a wonderful job of managing SS doesn't it?!  They use others' money to create a bunch of less-than-man drones that depend upon the government! 

"Right now in this country we have enough welfare give away programs, such as the massive tax cuts for the ultra rich"

  Sooo..  allowing people to keep some of their money is welfare?  Your wealth-envy has clouded your mind.  The "ultra rich" have been getting ripped off for a long time!  Even with the hated Bush tax cuts, the top few percent of income EARNERS (I know you hate the idea that they earn that money) still paid half of all personal income taxes.  In CA it's the top 1%!  Yet again:  if you want more money.. earn it.  If you can't, then that is your problem.  If you think working 40 hrs a week as a trained chimp is going to afford you a comfortable retirement, then it is obvious why you are not successful!  We do need to abolish welfare as well as SS!

"Tax cuts to the wealthy never created a job, if it did then why are we in such bad shape and unemployment so high?"  

  Since it is the wealthy who create jobs, you are incorrect here.  Your connection to unemployment is silly.  I suppose you think a rooster forces the sun to rise since it crows before this happens, which also lead you to believe that the President has magical powers and is solely responsible for everything in the nation during his term (or the next term, or whenever you want to make this claim).  Don't take such a simplistic look at a country's economy.  There are a multitude of factors.  HW Bush criticized Reagan for what he called "voodoo economics" and there is much truth there.  Reagan actually greatly increased taxes under many measures!  That you claim "tax cuts for those that do not need it " shows disregard for another's property.  How about if I decide what you need or don't need.  Need is irrelevant when it comes to personal assets, they belong to the person.

  I assume you were referring to Limbaugh earlier (I really need to listen to him someday.. I never have heard his show) and many like to use an entertainer as a spokesman for their opposition.  I'm not propping up Keith Olbermann as any kind of philosophical mind!  He's an entertainer, so leave them out and deal with the actual issues.

"No one enjoys paying taxes, but they sure enjoy what those taxes pay for."

  Except that those who pay taxes pay for other people's personal responsibilities.  Those who do not pay taxes really enjoy what they receive on these people's dime, and yes, the health care bill does give a "free ride" to many.  The word "affordable" is dishonest.  You yourself said some things cost money, and health care is one of them.  Everyone in America can currently obtain "affordable" health care no matter what their income, some people simply do not want to.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson:

Well you have shown your true colors. We were carrying on a half was decent debate and then you have to go off the deep end. I have no wealth envy, my income, without SS is in the six figures, so for a high school dropout I think I do pretty good. But you have go and read a bunch of shxx that I did not say, nor did I insinuate any of it.

The meaning of that candy store is that everyone uses the commons and therefore should pay for it, the cost of those commons is no longer the money of the people using those commons, that includes roads, courts and every other thing in this nation so many take for granted. If the rich created jobs then how do you explain all those million dollar bonuses and not one job created? Wall Street does not create jobs and the only rich people that create jobs are the ones that have a business and keep the business here in the United States. Sure Burger King does create jobs if that’s what you want to call them, of course you can’t support a family on that income, but then that isn’t your fault, it’s theirs because they are either too lazy to get a real job are too dumb to get one. And the people that are unemployed because they just want a free ride, and won’t take any of those jobs all those tax breaks are creating.

We could go into what those tax breaks do and how trickledown economics does not work, but I am tired of talking with you. It was fine until you went nutty on me.

Good bye

Charlie Lockett

"I never said that anyone was working for nothing. I said hospitals were run as not for profit. That means that profit is not the motivating object of the business."

  Who do you know in the medical field?  I have many family members who have been in it for well over 30 years and your statement is simply not true!  The motivating factor for any job is profit, whether that profit is monetary or not!  If you are so supremely sure that companies are making "unreasonable" profits, whatever that means, then (I don't know how many times I need to repeat this) START YOUR OWN COMPANY THAT SUCCESSFULLY OPERATES WITH LOWER PROFITS!  If your theory is correct, all Americans would choose to do business with you and your competition would be forced to offer similar choices.

"now over 60% of the bankruptcies are due to medical costs"

"health care system is ranked 37th in the world."

  BS on both counts.

  Today's Americans are generally pathetic, out of shape, lazy, and unwilling to save for future complications.  Assuring them that mommy and daddy government will take care of any difficulties will compound this problem.  You know what happens to domesticated animals or spoiled children.. they become unable to care for themselves.  If, as you say, people are simply getting a return on payments they made to the government in the past, then why even have the amazingly inefficient government involved?  Why not allow these people to use their money as they see fit, taking whatever risk they feel comfortable with?

  Are you suggesting that WHO's rankings have any bearing on the reality?  Look into how they "rate" these systems.  Why would America want to stoop to the level of other countries?  We've been sliding towards their hell for far too long now.

 "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson:

If you have such a dim view of Americans, why all this debate? slice, I a guess greed is good and the monopoly of HMO's is one of the many problems in the health care system.

Health Care should be like police or firefighters. Do we look for a profit from the police or fire department? Do you believe having police and fire departments make for a mommy and daddy government? I believe, this is done for the common good and to form a more perfect union.

"I have no wealth envy" "If the rich created jobs then how do you explain all those million dollar bonuses and not one job created? "

Ooookay! 

"The meaning of that candy store is that everyone uses the commons and therefore should pay for it"

Candy, just like personal health costs, are not "commons".

"Sure Burger King does create jobs if that’s what you want to call them, of course you can’t support a family on that income, but then that isn’t your fault, it’s theirs because they are either too lazy to get a real job are too dumb to get one. And the people that are unemployed because they just want a free ride, and won’t take any of those jobs all those tax breaks are creating."

  If all you can handle is flipping burgers, then you should not have a family.  Not providing for your family is a problem of yours.  Every choice you make will affect your life, so make good ones.  The job belongs to the employer, not the employee.  All jobs in existence are created by the employer (or the government, though it has no money to do so.  I suppose if I steal your money and use it to hire someone to re-roof my house, you would think that's how to "create" jobs?).

  How many welfare jerks do you know?  I have personally met many who will not work because they get a free ride.  Why don't you spend an afternoon interviewing people in prison and discover their venerable work ethic?  If you earn so much money why don't you just donate it to those poor helpless souls?  You don't "need" it and the only thing holding them back is bad luck!  Why would you rather require money from others who earn it (but they really don't "need" it)?

  Please inform me on how terrible it is to give tax breaks to the one group in America who deserve them but are discriminated against because of their greatness.. without resorting to ad hominem.  Factual info please, not emotion-stirring rhetoric.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson:

No need to say it again, so read the above and try not to ignore.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson:

Why don't you back up your claim that those stats sre bogus.

"now over 60% of the bankruptcies are due to medical costs"

"health care system is ranked 37th in the world."

  BS on both counts.

Then you can explain the 101

page Patterson document that creates a zoning czar to me.

I need you to shine some of your brillance our way.

"Everyone in America can currently obtain "affordable" health care no matter what their income, some people simply do not want to."

As I stated in my first post, my wife could not.  No company would even allow her to purchase a policy.   So explain your comment in that context.

Even if you have zero dollars, you can get health care in the US.  An insurance policy is completely different, and the companies that provide these services have absolutely no obligation to you.  Why is it that some people have such a hard time understanding this distinction?

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire

  I have already explained both stats.. Why don't you show evidence that they are true?  (bankruptcy "linked to" health care does not mean "due to", rankings have criteria)

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary"-- H.L. Mencken

"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it."-- H.L. Mencken

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire

I got it.  No need for the insults.  I mis-read.

So how do you define affordable?

  I definitely did not intend any insult, and apologize if I gave that impression.  "Affordable" is a relative term and depends on what you are talking about and who is saying it.  I may want a more affordable Bentley, but if I am earning $10/hr I would probably consider it "unaffordable".  This does not change the price of the product.  If I am earning $1000/hr I may think that a Bentley is quite affordable, though the price is unchanged.

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire

I'm sure you would like a more affordable Bentley.  But earlier you said that you wouldn't compare candy to healthcare, so I would say you can't really compare the cost of a Bentley to healthcare.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States the median household income in 2007 was around $50,000 so we can use that number.

I'd like to think that the "average" person making an "average" income should be able to afford health care.  Do you think the average Joe making the median household income of $50,000 for a family of 4 (or 3) could afford healthcare for his family without insurance?

Do you think he would have been able to afford health care 20 years ago?
10 years ago?  
Do you believe the costs of health care have increased to a point where most would not be able to afford the costs unless they have insurance?

  If you check my comment I did compare candy to healthcare.  They are both personal costs.  Yes I do think that a man making $50k/yr can afford health care (health care is available for those who make $0/yr!), and if he has several children that is his choice and responsibility.

  As I said in the beginning of this blog, the high cost of insurance is due to government interference.  Why do I have to buy insurance that covers a variety of things unrelated to me?..  Because government regulations require it.  Why can I not buy an insurance policy from a state with fewer regulations?..  Because the government forbids it.  Why can I not choose to save my money, invest it how I see fit, then pay for whatever medical costs I want to?..  Well I can, but maybe not for long, and with government regulations requiring employers to participate in the insurance programs (an employee being paid $50/yr costs the employer a lot more than $50/yr) this is difficult to do.  Government courts allow outrageous lawsuits (sorry, we will never have a perfect life, utopia does not exist, and you cannot expect wizardry in the hospital) which also drive up costs.

  Without this government involvement, supply and demand in the free market would surely lower costs.  Freedom is referred to as "chaos" by communists, and by stirring up fears of failure (also part of freedom) many buy into the idea of giving up freedom for a safety net.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."-- Benjamin Franklin

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire

  Even a salary of $0 gets health care, I already said that.  Yes, bad things happen on planet Earth and always will.  Mankind cannot fully tame nature, so he must prepare himself for life's future negatives.  Don't spend all your money (savings, radical idea huh?).

"If he paid the insurance price it would be below $30"

  No, the insurance company paid the rest with money it collected from the insured, including this example man!

As soon as the state restriction was removed, the insurance industry would look for the state where they could operate under the least amount of controls (or at the greatest profit) and move shop.  The result, now they all are based in one state, and are now under little to no control of regulators and are free to do what they like, or you could argue, what the market will allow.

  Great!  Why do you not want competition?  Racketeering is already illegal, and any company that provides its customers with the best product for the best price will succeed!

"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."  "The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."  "Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."-- Milton Friedman

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire

"If he paid the insurance price it would be below $30"

  No, the insurance company paid the rest with money it collected from the insured, including this example man!

Wrong.  Have you ever seen a statement of benefits?  On mine, it shows a negotiated price for a doctor's visit is roughly $30.  The insurance company paid $30 to the doctor for his time, yet if I walk in with cash, it's more than $200.  

If you also had ever seen one you would see what the doctor actually bills, and what the insurance pays.  And what the doctor bills the insurance is something like 50% of the cash price.

Do you think the doctor is still making a profit on what the insurance rate is?  I bet he is.  And this isn't Medicare, this is a Blue Cross PPO.

Do you think a man making $50,000 a year would qualify for government sponsored care?  I'm pretty sure there is an income cut off, but to be honest I don't know, I've never looked into it.

   I have several family members who are doctors, nurses, and practitioners, and I don't know if your billing receipt is incomplete, since I am not personally involved with your case, but the doctors I know give a discount for cash payments!  I sure hope the doctor makes profit on cash or insurance payments.  Why do you begrudge him profit?  Are his services not worth paying for?

  Anyone can get free health care, though I believe it is dishonest to if you earn money.  You may find this hard to believe, but I am often described as "generous, giving, and empathetic!"  I believe it is great to give to others, but what you seem to be proposing is to take from some, then transfer these resources to others.

  PS.  Blue Cross has poor reputation.

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."-- Voltaire